Heba Gowayed discusses her In These Times article, "Borders and the Exchange of Humans for Debt: Borders and debt are new instruments of violence in a system that has had many names." Heba is an Associate Professor of Sociology at CUNY Hunter College. She is author of, "Refuge: How the State Shapes Human Potential." "The Moment of Truth" with Jeff Dorchen follows the interview. Check out Heba's article here: https://inthesetimes.com/article/borders-exchange-humans-debt-asylum-global-south Help keep This Is Hell! completely listener supported and access bonus episodes by subscribing to our Patreon: www.patreon.com/thisishell